Podcast

How Change Really Works With Julia Dhar – TWMJ #1057

Welcome to episode #1057 of Thinking With Mitch Joel (formerly Six Pixels of Separation).

Julia Dhar is a leading voice in behavioral science and organizational transformation, and the founder of the Behavioral Science Lab at Boston Consulting Group. A three-time World Schools Debating Champion and TED speaker known for her work on productive disagreement, Julia has spent much of her career exploring a deceptively simple question: Why do organizations invest so much time, money, and human potential in change… only to fail so often? In her new book, How Change Really Works – Seven Science-Based Principles for Transforming Your Organization, co-authored with Kristy R. Ellmer and Philip Jameson, she challenges the conventional wisdom that people are naturally resistant to change. Instead, she argues that leaders routinely misunderstand the psychology of transformation, confuse agreement with alignment, and underestimate the importance of giving people genuine agency. In this conversation, Julia and I explore why so many organizational transformations fail, what the current rush toward AI reveals about the disconnect between leadership and employees, and why simply announcing a new strategy doesn’t mean anyone will embrace it. We unpack her research on “change distance,” the gap between executive enthusiasm and employee expectations, and examine why optimism, clear expectations, and agency are essential to making change stick. We also discuss the power of storytelling in transformation, why leaders must choose between narratives of threat, fitness, and destiny, and how even successful change initiatives can quietly unravel when the initial excitement gives way to boredom. Throughout our conversation, we wrestle with the difference between involving people and actually empowering them, the danger of AI creating more homogeneous thinking, and why building collective confidence may matter more than another ambitious strategic plan. At the heart of Julia’s work is a powerful idea: people don’t necessarily resist change… they resist change that doesn’t make sense to them, doesn’t account for their reality, or leaves them feeling that their actions don’t matter. Enjoy the conversation…

Running time: 58:21.
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Here is my conversation with Julia Dhar.
How Change Really Works – Seven Science-Based Principles for Transforming Your Organization.
Behavioral Science Lab.
Boston Consulting Group.
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Chapters:

(00:00) – Introduction and guest background.
(02:05) – Behavioral science principles for change success.
(04:07) – Generational and cultural aspects of change.
(08:31) – The role of collaboration and collective effort.
(12:38) – The power of points of view and clear messaging.
(15:44) – Homogeneity and originality in AI-generated ideas.
(16:40) – The importance of storytelling and symbols.
(25:44) – The impact of culture and collective belief.
(30:23) – The disconnect between leadership and employees.
(36:58) – The reality of operational challenges.
(40:38) – Baking a bigger pie versus limiting slices.
(41:26) – The power of storytelling in change.
(47:48) – The human need for purpose and impact.
(49:21) – Understanding agency and human capacity.
(52:21) – Building and demonstrating agency.
(54:50) – The importance of impact and feedback.
(55:54) – Connecting with Julia and resources.

Download the Podcast here: #1057 of Thinking With Mitch Joel (formerly Six Pixels of Separation).

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Mitch Joel

Mitch Joel lives at the intersection of technology, business transformation and consumer culture. He is the Executive Director of Next Era Institute, a strategic intelligence platform helping leaders understand the forces reshaping business, technology, culture and society. The Institute identifies which shifts matter, explores their wider significance and translates them into strategic direction and momentum. Mitch is also a globally recognized keynote speaker. He has delivered thousands of presentations across both B2B and B2C industries to organizations including Google, Walmart, LEGO, Shopify, Microsoft, Procter & Gamble and Unilever. Strategy Magazine has called him “one of North America’s leading visionaries.” Mitch built his career by working directly inside the waves of change that reshaped modern business. He founded and built a digital marketing agency that worked with some of the world’s largest brands and was later acquired by WPP, where he served as President of a firm operating in 25 countries with almost 3,000 employees. Mitch is the bestselling author of Six Pixels of Separation and CTRL ALT Delete, and the host of Thinking With Mitch Joel, one of the longest-running business podcasts in the world. His writing and commentary appear in outlets including Harvard Business Review, Fast Company and Inc. Magazine. He is a member of Dr. Marshall Goldsmith’s 100 Coaches and was named to the Thinkers50 Radar. Mitch also hosts Groove – The No Treble Podcast, documenting the oral history of electric bass players. Mitch is also Co-Founder of ThinkersOne, a platform that enables companies to bring personalized thought leadership from world-class experts into meetings, events and off-sites in focused 15-minute bursts.